Ciao!

Iraq and the "Arab world" are entirely different places/categories/entities. I honestly haven't a clue about the thumbs up symbolism, but I urge you not to generalize. After all, Iraqis and Iraqi culture(s) are highly heterogeneous, complex, and shifting. There's ample of room for different symbols, not to mention conflicting interpretations of the same symbol.

I think my friend Moataz is a good reference. Also, the discussion boards on the "thumbs up" argument are filled w/ Arabs and people who've travelled through Iraq pointing out that the claim is ludicrous. As for my friend, Moataz, he's been in pretty much every Arab country (except Iraq). He studies public political attitudes (the subject of his dissertation is whether or not there is support for democracy in the Arab-Muslim world) and spent about a year traveling through countries. He also, like me, knows more than a few members of the Arab community on campus and in Kalamazoo proper. There seems to be no validity to the "thumbs up" as negative claim.

Not to mention that the thumbs up was accompanied by hugs, kisses, flowers, and other statements that are clearly positive. Unless all these statements have negative meanings in Iraq?

My problem w/ the Indymedia.org claim is its clear stupidity. There were better arguments they could've made. They could've stuck to their guns about the war being immoral. They could've argued that the Iraqis were happy to be rid of Saddam, but would soon tire of the Americans. Or they could even claim that a population long cowed into submitting to brute force was just acting in a way that they hoped the Americans expected. Any of those arguments would've been valid. By turning to the most ridiculous argument out there, they lost all credibility.

Notice that the stories about "thumbs up" argument is not based on any evidence from actual Arabs. Instead, it's based on: A) the proposition that cultural signs may carry different meanings in different contexts (but provides no direct evidence that this particular sign has any particularly unique meaning to Iraqis) and B) the evidence that thumbs up had a negative to the ancient Romans (who were not Arabs and whose civilization ended almost 2,000 years ago).

The thumb up sign in ourcountry usually means "Hey - OK!" According to author Desmond Morris, the gesture developed in ancient Rome. If a gladiator fought well and the Coloseum crowd deemed him worthy, spectators covered their thumbs. If they wanted him to die, they mimed the action of a sword by sticking their thumbs up. Through the ages, the positive and negative meanings of the two gestures somehow got reversed. Even today, you have to watch how you use the thumbs-up sign. In various cultures or contexts, it can mean

Nothing doing!
the number five
Please give me a lift! or
long-live the Basques!

Choose images carefully. Be sure not to portray products or ideas that offend your target audience, such as showing alcohol or pork in Muslim countries. Even the portrayal of hands or gestures is important: "In Asia, the thumbs-up symbol is positive, but in Europe and Latin America, it's an obscene gesture."

The thumbs up symbol is indeed a POSITIVE symbol in Latin America (I was born and raised in Bolivia and have travelled throughout). I'm also more than 99.9 percent sure that it's a positive symbol in most of Europe as well. Since the link to the site Mexinger provides doesn't work, I can't speak to the context of the statement. But rest assured, the thumbs up symbol is indeed a very POSITIVE one in Latin America.

OK, I'm now officially pissed off at armchair sociologists.

This is the link, and yes, it does work (was just there)
http://www.entrepreneur.com/Your_Business/YB_SegArticle/0,4621,275094,00.html

Here are some others:

http://travel.boston.com/columns/sl/110101_gestures.html
http://slate.msn.com/id/2080812
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2934011.stm

Please note that many of these links discuss the "thumbs up" as obscene, and were written BEFORE the war (invasion), so there is no political bent...unlike the above posts.

Actually, that's not true. The BBC article came out 10 April; the war was already under way. SImilarly, the Slate article. Both clearly also reference the war as having already begun (the Slate article is also based on previous Indymedia reports).

I'm sure in some parts of the world the thumbs up gesture might be obscene. But looking at the Iraqi war images, that's not the case. Because the thumbs up aren't isolated. There's also the hugging, smiling, waving, kissing, flowers, etc. Unless of course the Iraqi people (including little kids) are the world's highest masters of sarcasm.

And the gladiatorial origins of the thumbs up seem irrelevant to today's modern world. I'm not sure why people rely on that as evidence of what a gesture means to a non-Roman people 2,000 years later.

Stop seeing the world with your short western view. The world is not only the western world. In Iraq, Iran, parts of Syria and Turkey and even of Greece, thumbs up are equivalent to the middle finger. Culture is not the same in all Arab countries. I have seen pictures where many Iraqies were giving the finger to the american troops and I have seen a very few hundred (usually staged) iraqies "welcoming" the troops. Wake up and see the whole image

Wait, NG, let me get this straight. I'm wrong to question Indymedia.org because in most of the Arab world thumbs up is the equivalent of our middle finger gesture. But ... you've seen pictures of Iraqis giving our troops the middle finger (for the record, I'm sure such pictures exist) and this proves, what again? Oh yes, that thumbs up means middle finger. But, wait, if thumbs up means middle finger, does middle finger mean thumbs up? Did I miss something?

One of these days I will visit a place like this where people actually engage their brains (if they have any) This would mean coming up with an explanation that uses all the available data, and possibly makes use of search engines and the intenet
Point 1. Two sites
http://www.msc.navy.mil/msccent/taboos.htm
http://www.getcustoms.com/articles/gestures.html
Now why would the NAVY say that thumbs up means an obscenity if it were not true??? Wait, I know, the Navy is run by a Democrat :-)

Point 2
So why are all those people hugging, kissing and giving thumbs up. Well gee - maybe they were lured into the situation. Or maybe, they are genuinely glad to see those Americans who rid them of Saddam and in addition are immitating what they have seen americans do. Or maybe something is happening that we do not know.